Antithetic Waggle

Posted: Tue 21:08, 25 Jan 2011

Something that might help in setting correctly the diagonality of the stance as well as to promote starting the motion properly with the trigger compression. Please read the details here:

[link widoczny dla zalogowanych]

Cheers

Posted: Sun 16:25, 13 Nov 2011

Quote:

hello Dariusz,

thanks so much for your great posts here and on You Tube.

i joined this forum today because i have done a great deal of studying all types of swing theories, from hogan, to sean foley, to jack nicklaus, to chuck quinton, to dalton mccrary, and many others... and now i found your amazing post on youtube of the antithetic waggle... THIS HAS HELPED ME SO MUCH!

the problem is that i am never able to get my shoulders to turn freely when i take my real backswing unless i do a serious waggle first without allowing my shoulders to turn. i never understood why, but now after your posts, i think i do.

here is my main question: is the reason why i am only able to get my shoulders to turn in my backswing if i first waggle, because i restrict my shoulders in the waggle, which builds up tension there, and then, when i release, they are properly isolated and let go?

when i waggle with hands and arms but don't let my shoulders turn, the shoulders WANT TO TURN, BUT THEY CAN'T. then, when i let them, they are ready to go, and they do! is this the key???

thanks so much,
mitch winston

Dear Mitch, thanks for your kind words and I am glad you have found the info somehow helpful.

One of the main purposes of waggling the club is reducing the start-up tension as well as prepare all important parts of the body to the motion. A very key area is start of the motion. As already explained in detail, any motion should not be started without an initial triggers. The waggle done in the antithetic way, i.e. not letting the shoulders move together with hips, and even move in an opposite direction than hips, is the optimal pre-trigger preparation that is just a rear side compression phase onti the lead side "wall". It lets, in consequence, use the kinetic energy created with this compression in the takeaway phase - the rear side uses the inertia created by "bouncing" of the "wall". Same scenario when we e.g. rock on a broken car to be able to push it.
The whole procedure that started from the antithetic waggling and triggering the motion leads inevitably and automatically to the only one correct motion - rear side leading the motion in the backswing phase. Why the only correct one ? Because with rear side pulling the body achieves correct depth, including rear shoulder depth. Lead side pushing is totally ineffective in this field.
The whole above-mdescribed procedure is exactly one of the examples of the essence of biokinetics - an automatism that is just a cascade of unintentional events when one event follows the other because there is no other options left (that might spoil the whole motion).

Cheers

Posted: Sun 16:49, 13 Nov 2011

Dariusz,
Thanks so much for replying.
Yes, I have read about the antithetic waggle, and i find it very helpful.
But I have two questions which i still don't understand, which i think make me very confused:

1) when you say that the rear side starts the back swing, can you give me the exact body parts you are talking about? in hogan's book, for a right-handed golfer, he states that the left arm and hand control the waggle, and the shoulders don't turn, so it makes sense that the right side starts the swing, since it has been held back and builds up tension. but what exact body part of the rear side starts the swing? is this body part that starts the swing the right shoulder?

i apologize because i have read a lot of your posts, and it is very scientific and hard for me to understand sometimes. i want to know the exact simple way to start my golf swing, with the proper trigger, and i just can't figure it out... i think if i fully understand the waggle this will really open up for me.. i guess this brings me back to my question of what is the exact body part that starts the backswing, after i waggle..

(IF YOU COULD SOMEHOW EXPLAIN THIS AS IF I AM COMPLETELY IGNORANT, IN VERY SIMPLE TERMS, IT WOULD REALLY HELP SO MUCH)

thanks so much,
mitch winston

Posted: Sun 19:11, 13 Nov 2011

Mitch,

Although the post-secret Hogan's motion appeared to be the closest to the biokinetc ideal there are some differences between my theory and what he wrote or said he's doing. The BGS theory is coherent from both anatomical and physical point of view, therefore, there can be no exceptions even for Hogan.

The motion starts always from the ground up. If you look at Hogan or other greats who used the trigger compression phase to begin with it is always body moving first, then arms/handle and clubhead at the end of the queue. Hogan said something different but if you look closely - he did what he did not advocate in the book. It might have been his feels though - that is exactly why I never pay any attention to one's feels.
When the rear side hits the "wall" during the trigger (you may emphasize it with the rear heel slightly rolling inside and up - Hogan is told to have his rear heel off the ground until his rear side turning back and up during takeaeway brought his weight onto the heel and it automatically was forced to drop). Byron Nelson's trigger also cointained this element.
Then, the rest follows - knee, hip, shoulder, arm, hand, clubhead. One remark - it is often "felt" that hips are the first. But they aren't in a biokinetically correct motion. It may be being "felt" this way since the rotational limit of the rear leg joints are practically reached already in set-up via the rear leg joints preset - and the next joint up is hip joint.

Cheers

Posted: Sun 20:04, 13 Nov 2011

wow, this is very interesting information, and very new to me.

to summarize what i think you are saying, during the waggle AND the real backswing: the feet start, and then the hips, and then the shoulders is the correct order of motion. wow! this is very different than what i thought, but it totally makes sense. i am going to try this out tomorrow at the range, if it's not too cold!

can i ask one more question?: it would seem then, that since the arms and hands are what lifts the club up vertically, the club would stay low for a long time in the beginning of the swing, which is started by the lower body, the club will not elevate much at all vertically until the arms and hands are activated, which is last, which is what explains why the hogan plane is a low plane, and a shallow plane.... (obviously, if the hands and arms start the swing, then it can become very vertical too soon, but if they are activated last, the shoulders and hips cannot do much to lift the club, so it stays low for a long time... ) is this true?

by the way, i think you are a genius!

Posted: Sun 20:59, 13 Nov 2011

Mitch, I am hardly genius; rather intelligent and persistent enough not to believe conventional golf instruction.

Your question is very good now and the answer to it is exactly in line with what we were discussing earlier today. Golfers start the motion with a forward bend and golf clubheads have lie angles. Thus, we start to take away the clubhead neutrally and squarely to the spine (neither too much up nor too less up) with shoulder girdle moving around 45* angle. The rear arm must start to bend in elbow because the elbow joint cannot move in all directions. This forces a simultaneous pronation of the lead forearm. Both moves are responsible for the "up" element.
In biokinetically inferior patterns, when arms are too active either the lead arm pronation is a leading motion bringing the clubhead too flat and too behind the body or they lift too much in an upright position which simply means the connection with main body motion is seriously weakened.

Cheers

Posted: Tue 1:13, 15 Nov 2011

Hello Dariusz,

Thanks again for your reply.

I hit the range today and had some success, but i became confused as it seemed that hogan's waggle contradicts your waggle! let me explain...

i went back and read a lot of your past articles, and i think i found out why i am always so damn confused with hogan's waggle and how it relates to my swing:

1) in your writings, you seem to state that the hands and clubhead move last, which in some ways promotes a lagging clubhead takeaway. by looking at this photo of yourself in your writing, where you show the red arrows demonstrating the torque vectors, it seems that you promote a lagging clubhead, since you have the vector of the hands going counter-clockwise in the backswing.

[link widoczny dla zalogowanych]

2) HOWEVER, WHEN YOU WATCH HOGAN'S WAGGLE, HE IS ACTIVELY USING HIS WRISTS AND HANDS TO WAGGLE THE CLUB, WHICH IS NOT A CHAIN REACTION AT ALL. HE IS ARTIFICIALLY MANIPULATING THE CLUBHEAD WITH HIS HANDS AND WRISTS, WHICH SEEMS TO CONTRADICT YOUR BIOKINETIC SWING.

would you therefore state that one of your differences between your theory and hogan's writings is this??

i hope you answer yes to this question, because i now think that trying to do hogan's exact waggle is causing me some big problems... it just seems that his waggle is a forceful wrist cock, and your writings say that this should not be...

Posted: Tue 9:16, 15 Nov 2011

Mitch,

I guess we must find a common point first. Are we talking now about the waggle or the start of the motion (from the trigger compression) ? my last two posts concerned the latter and there was nothing about waggling the club.

Let me say clearily again - waggling (apart from reducing the start-up tension) is just a preparation for an effective motion, it's like a trigger compression plus some arm/wrist movement, correct dynamic resetting of both hands on the grip, correct dynamic setting of the spacial relationship between hips, main body and shoulder girdle. Yes, during the waggle the arms (especially rear elbow and rear wrist joints) works actively (they don't in the takeaway though).

BTW, the link you quoted does not provide a certain photo. Please restate it so that I could eventually comment it.

Cheers

Posted: Tue 12:56, 15 Nov 2011

Thank you for replying again Dariusz, and sorry for causing any confusion!

I think your confusion in answering my question clearly explains my own confusion about the relationship between the waggle and the real backswing, and what really gets me in trouble.

However, by your answer I see that these two things are not the same, and even though the waggle is very important, it is not exactly the same as the start of the backswing. This has answered my question.

The photo I am talking about in that link has the following caption: "Here is the photo of the BGST author presenting rear ankle/knee joints (BTW, as well as the rear elbow joint) presets": (i don't know how to attach it to this posting, so i hope this helps you find it)

Perhaps then, my real question is, do you promote some sort of lagging clubhead takeaway? If your answer is yes, then i think i will have bridged the gap between the waggle and the real backswing.

I always have thought that if you waggle properly, the backswing just happens naturally, but i think this sometimes causes my hands to become too active in the real backswing...

So if you could focus your answer to me based on the lagging clubhead takeaway in the waggle versus the real backswing, and most importantly whether we use this lagging clubhead takeaway in the real backswing, then i think i will be much closer to escaping my confusion!

Thanks so much again,
Mitch

Posted: Tue 21:56, 15 Nov 2011

Mitch, answers in bold:

hamptonsgolfschool wrote:

Thank you for replying again Dariusz, and sorry for causing any confusion!

No problems at all. Please do not be sorry.

I think your confusion in answering my question clearly explains my own confusion about the relationship between the waggle and the real backswing, and what really gets me in trouble.
However, by your answer I see that these two things are not the same, and even though the waggle is very important, it is not exactly the same as the start of the backswing. This has answered my question.

Of course they aren't. The waggle is more like trigger compression of the lower body enriched with an antithetic movement of the upper body (the opposite direction) including rear arm's joints motion (sort of mimicking what will happen after takeaway).

The photo I am talking about in that link has the following caption: "Here is the photo of the BGST author presenting rear ankle/knee joints (BTW, as well as the rear elbow joint) presets": (i don't know how to attach it to this posting, so i hope this helps you find it)

OK, I see now that's impossible to give the proper link to a single photo on the .blogspot.com Not cool at all. What about the photo then ?

Perhaps then, my real question is, do you promote some sort of lagging clubhead takeaway? If your answer is yes, then i think i will have bridged the gap between the waggle and the real backswing.

Yes. Because during the takeaway there is no antithetic motion of the upper part of the body. Juat using the kinetic energy created at the trigger phase starting from the ground up.

I always have thought that if you waggle properly, the backswing just happens naturally, but i think this sometimes causes my hands to become too active in the real backswing...
So if you could focus your answer to me based on the lagging clubhead takeaway in the waggle versus the real backswing, and most importantly whether we use this lagging clubhead takeaway in the real backswing, then i think i will be much closer to escaping my confusion!

Please inform me if the confusion still exists. I apologize to you since it could have been me who created the confusion with my English.

Thanks so much again,
Mitch

Cheers

Posted: Thu 0:40, 17 Nov 2011

Hello Dariusz,

Thanks again for your reply. I have wasted years of my life trying to start the waggle with my left hand, which it says in the Hogan book. I have now been fixed of this problem, and my performance on the range today and yesterday has been excellent.

Just one more quick question. In your latest answer, you said the following thing: "Of course they aren't. The waggle is more like trigger compression of the lower body enriched with an antithetic movement of the upper body (the opposite direction) including rear arm's joints motion (sort of mimicking what will happen after takeaway)."

I believe that you are saying that during the waggle, for a right-handed golfer, as the lower body weight goes towards the target, the upper body goes in the opposite direction, away from the target.

So this leaves me with two final questions that i hope you can confirm:

1) in the WAGGLE, please confirm in a very simple and easy way what exact body parts act antithetically against each other.

2) in the beginning of the REAL BACKSWING, is the right elbow socket is the most dominant body part? i feel that this must be true, because if the right elbow socket does not independently do something, then the right shoulder will not turn, and the problem will be that the backswing will mimic the waggle too much, and the legs and hips will go towards the target way too soon, before the upper body turns properly! is this correct???

thanks so much again.

i can't tell you how much i wish i had conversed with you years ago... like i said, i believe that hogan's biggest mistake in his 5 Lessons book is that he says the left hand dominates the waggle... this now seems very wrong and has really wasted a lot of my time!!!!

thanks again,
mitch winston[/quote]

Posted: Thu 12:49, 17 Nov 2011

Answers in bold letters again:

hamptonsgolfschool wrote:

Hello Dariusz,

Thanks again for your reply. I have wasted years of my life trying to start the waggle with my left hand, which it says in the Hogan book. I have now been fixed of this problem, and my performance on the range today and yesterday has been excellent.

I am very happy for you. Cool

Just one more quick question. In your latest answer, you said the following thing: "Of course they aren't. The waggle is more like trigger compression of the lower body enriched with an antithetic movement of the upper body (the opposite direction) including rear arm's joints motion (sort of mimicking what will happen after takeaway)."
I believe that you are saying that during the waggle, for a right-handed golfer, as the lower body weight goes towards the target, the upper body goes in the opposite direction, away from the target.

I wouldn't say "weight" precisely, although it surely does. I would rather say the directions of the orientation of movements are opposite (antithetic).

So this leaves me with two final questions that i hope you can confirm:

1) in the WAGGLE, please confirm in a very simple and easy way what exact body parts act antithetically against each other.

The simplest way is rear hip joint and rear elbow joint. They close to each other during the waggle process. But, of course, it is the effect of the whole lower body from the ground up moving the opposite way to the main body the pelvis up plus the rear arm joints motions.

2) in the beginning of the REAL BACKSWING, is the right elbow socket is the most dominant body part? i feel that this must be true, because if the right elbow socket does not independently do something, then the right shoulder will not turn, and the problem will be that the backswing will mimic the waggle too much, and the legs and hips will go towards the target way too soon, before the upper body turns properly! is this correct???

No, I don't think any special body part is dominant over the others. They just naturally do what they are supposed to do in an unintentional reality. The motion is being guided from the ground up while utilizing gained inertia from the first phase.

thanks so much again.

i can't tell you how much i wish i had conversed with you years ago... like i said, i believe that hogan's biggest mistake in his 5 Lessons book is that he says the left hand dominates the waggle... this now seems very wrong and has really wasted a lot of my time!!!!

Yes. Hogan's favouring his lead side during the takeaway/backswing is one of his fundamental mistakes described in the book.

thanks again,
mitch winston

[/quote]

Cheers

Posted: Tue 3:43, 22 Nov 2011

hello,
i just want to say i am having a great deal of success implementing some of your principles, especially the diagonal stance. this has been the largest help, as it somehow helps me to visualize the hogan plane better than ever, actually turn my shoulders nicely, and also helos me use my hips. so thanks a lot for your help.
as i said earlier, i really think i was focusing on an incorrect waggle for many years, and this really got me all over the place.
i am less concerned now with a traditional waggle as i am of feeling a certain way right before hitting the ball, which is easier with your diagonal stance.

thanks again for your great insight,
mitch

Posted: Tue 17:49, 22 Nov 2011

hamptonsgolfschool wrote:

hello,
i just want to say i am having a great deal of success implementing some of your principles, especially the diagonal stance. this has been the largest help, as it somehow helps me to visualize the hogan plane better than ever, actually turn my shoulders nicely, and also helos me use my hips. so thanks a lot for your help.
as i said earlier, i really think i was focusing on an incorrect waggle for many years, and this really got me all over the place.
i am less concerned now with a traditional waggle as i am of feeling a certain way right before hitting the ball, which is easier with your diagonal stance.

thanks again for your great insight,
mitch

Mitch, it is my great pleasure to hear it.

The most important thing in the BGS theory (as well as the biggest secret of Mr.Hogan in my opinion) are these "lego" pieces that match one another in the whole motion. One of the great examples is exactly how waggling the club in a correct way helps to establish a correct grip and stance as well as prepares the body for the trigger compression phase that starts the cascade of events.

Cheers