Wrist limits at impact

Posted: Mon 12:05, 09 Aug 2010

Hi Dariusz

How are you? I haven't had much time of late to think about golf, but a few days ago I logged on to have a look at what's happening on some of the forums.

Jeffy from Jim Hardy's OPS forum mentioned an impact training device that seeks to train supination (rotation), bowing (wrist forward), and ulnar deviation (thumbs down). The third point especially interested me, but certainly all three points establish limitations. Thought you might be interested....

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Mark

Posted: Mon 20:31, 09 Aug 2010

Mark G wrote:

Hi Dariusz

How are you? I haven't had much time of late to think about golf, but a few days ago I logged on to have a look at what's happening on some of the forums.

Jeffy from Jim Hardy's OPS forum mentioned an impact training device that seeks to train supination (rotation), bowing (wrist forward), and ulnar deviation (thumbs down). The third point especially interested me, but certainly all three points establish limitations. Thought you might be interested....

[link widoczny dla zalogowanych]

Mark

Hi Mark,

I have very little time for my golfing, too - I sacrifice my free time to my son's career and will be busy for the next 2 weeks with him. However, found time to play a round last Sunday and beat my personal record of FIR number - 100% on the 1st nine, 12/14 in total. All with driver (!). Mr.Hogan could have been proud of myself - well, sorta Wink

I do not know what device it is but I'd warn from achieving the ulnar deviation limitation if the lead hand is not strong enough. Why ? Because it would create a very upright attack conditions resulting in having a very high hands at impact.
However, if the LH grip is strong enough (like in the Bio-K grip) the ulnar deviation vector is not parallel to the clubhead (it's sort of 45* to each other) and meeting its limitation is very useful because it bows the lead wrist..

I believe this quote is still very valid (unfortunately, still not understood by the golf instruction):

"My answer is very simple. Because the so-called "classic" golf swing theories never truly concentrated on biomechanics and because golfers blindly believe in "imperatives". I say there are no imperatives until they are verified through all possible methods and sciences. The answers are:

a. the so-called "parallel V's" theory is biomechanically not optimal for the reasons I've just described. To remind them:
- wrists cannot achieve its maximal potential in creating lag;
- wrists work paralelly to each other accentuating the primary motion (hinging-unhinging) that is hard, or even impossible, to control.
The importance of lag does not need to be underlined. But should not we ask yourselves why is that so many golfers flip when trying to hit the ball ? The answer is - because they want to hit the ball the farthest (it's the role of the subconscious mind) and because the CP/CF forces in a rotary movement + gravity help in releasing the clubface...and - because the wrist are set the way that unhinging is almost a must in such a scenario.
OTOH, the BG creates a scenario when one (lead) wrist cocks/uncocks while the other (rear) hinges unhinges; no matter if all other factors (CP/CF, gravity, rotary motion) exist, the possibility of losing the rear wrist hinge lag is much more limited, because the lead wrist motion is of secondary biomechanical importance and one won't be able to flip the RH wrist so much. Simply, the lead hand will be tending to deviate ulnarly (downcocking) and will create a natural limitation for a more powerful palmar flexion (unhinging) action of the rear wrist.

b. why the lead wrist should be parallel to the clubface ? to control its movement in so fast an action ? sorry, I don't buy it. Moreover, think what position should have the lead wrist in a correct rotary swing when both hips and upper body are open at impact in relation to the target line. Should the lead wrist be square to the target line or is it the clubface that needs to be square ? If the lead shoulder is open at impact - the LH palm should not be square to the body motion, what means it must be also open in relation to it (say, "delayed"). It is the clubface that should be square (OK, very slightly open at contact with the ball, ideally), therefore, the LH grip must not be parallel to it but in a stronger position on the grip. "

Cheers my friend !

Posted: Wed 10:45, 11 Aug 2010

Thanks Dariusz

Well done with your ball-striking. I recall a comment by Mr. Hogan when responding to a player turning pro where he said something along the lines that he would want to be in a position where he could hit all fairways and greens...well you would certainly get the nod after your weekend round!

Actually I saw I clip of your swing on You tube, about 18 months old...it looked very good mate. How have you progressed since then?

I mentioned your site too on the Plane truth Forum as I believe your thoughts complement the OPS. If I'm not mistaken I remember your name on the forum some time ago...if I may ask, what are your thoughts on the OPS?

Posted: Wed 15:41, 11 Aug 2010

Thanks for nice words, Mark. If I find some time after my son's tournaments I'll make and upload my actual swing - although I am afraid it won't be aesthetically more pleasant because I am fatter...LOL.

Very true concerning FIR/GIR numbers. It is funny how the best ballstrikers treated short game and putting - as necessary evil. They were inrterested in FIR/GIR/pin hit contests. I always said I'd be more satisfied with a 74 with 100% FIR & GIR and 2x3-putts, than with 69 with a lot of luck around and on greens.

One Plane Swing Theory...spent 2 great years on this being active member of Mr.Hardy's forum. I have both books and almost all Secret Vault DVDs. It is a very good swing theory, much better than many people say on various fora. It has some flaws such as e.g. twist&throw concept or lawnmower takeaway (and attempts to explain Mr.Hogan's motion with them) but what theory not based on biomechanics hasn't flaws ? All of them.

Cheers

Posted: Thu 14:37, 12 Aug 2010

Hi again

Your older swing clip looked very very good to me as I mentioned, so I look forward to seeing your latest one. Good luck with your son and his tournaments too.

I very much agree regarding your ball-striking comments. Scoring is part of it, but for me I never understood why you would want to score well and continue to play badly. For me, striking the ball poorly just isn't that much fun!

I have studied most of Mr. Hardy's materials, and I too think his theory is very good. His contribution to golf instruction has been excellent....and I see he is moving forward with further initiatives which also seem promising.

There have been a few bits, though, which I have not fully grasped or perhaps felt may have been better explained. One part that I have got stuck on is role of the arms in the backswing, which you mention in your post. I have found it difficult to be able to execute the motion of no rotation back up the shaft-at-address plane (the lawnmower move) and then add rotation to get to the shoulder plane. For me, this is unnatural and complex and instead I find it easier to blend it together right from the start...although this means being less over the toes during the half way back check point.

I don't know exactly, but it has caused me no end of frustration. I have probably made the most progress when forgetting about it...incorporating a waggle, starting forearm rotation almost from the beginning, maintaining width, and ensuring a good body pivot. I would really like to get it sorted out though...to properly know the what and the how and then be able to perform a correct, automatic backswing arm motion.

I hope not to impose too much on you, but I would love to get your advice.

Mark

Posted: Sat 11:50, 14 Aug 2010

Thanks, mate. Smile

As regards the takeaway - this is why the preset of the rear elbow joint at address is so important; it neither allows the joint wander too much back (lawnmower) nor stay too much in the front of the body - since one can easily use the theory of natural limitations there; please observe that the joint cannot go deep and, simultaneously, is forced to bend and, in consequence, the forearm elevates automatically.
There is no use to think about literally ANYTHING during the takeaway, the more it uses the inertia of the trigger compression phase.

Cheers

P.S. If the limitation for clockwise turning of the lead forearm (pronation) is being found too soon - what often happens with too actiwe hands/wrists/forearms - a golfer usually ends with too deep clubface takeaway that can consequently lead to serious errors later on.